Sen. Donald Riegle served five terms in the House of Representative and three terms in the Senate representing the state of Michigan. Riegle first won a seat in the House in 1966 at the age of 28 as a Republican, changed party affiliation in 1973, began his first term as a Senator in 1977 and served until 1994. (Read his biography here).

 Sen. Riegle discussed the calamity currently affecting our government. He discussed the leadership of the Congress and the President, the similarities between today's government shutdown and the last government shutdown during the Clinton administration, and other applicable topics.

 Here is the interview:

Neon Tommy: Starting with a broader question, first of all, what are your thoughts on the current situation with the government shutdown?

Sen. Riegle: Well, we are bordering on a sort-of civil anarchy. I know that is a harsh term, but it makes no sense whatsoever to not fund the basic operations of the U.S. government. The Congress has already taken earlier actions to commit this spending. We have created the obligations, and now we have to provide the money to back up those earlier decisions. It should be a no-brainer, but it has obviously turned into an impasse.

NT: Why do you think that is?

Sen Riegle: Well, it is politics. There are some people that feel very strongly that they want to somehow thwart Obama, and also, they have targeted what they call Obamacare as something that they want to stop or stymie in any way.

 I spent 28 years in the Congress, and there were a lot of fights during that time, but there was never anything as extreme as this. It is almost hostage-taking of the budget and spending process over a single issue or aimed at a single president.

NT: How do you feel about the level of discourse and polarity in Congress?

 Sen Riegle: It is terribly hurtful. It is inexcusably hurtful to the country. It should not be tolerated. 

NT: Now how do we fix it?

Sen. Riegle: I think those who are leading this wrecking-crew in normal government operations need to be identified and defeated in the next election. They are not there to get something done; they are there to prevent something from getting done.

So, they need to be replaced, and that is not easy because somebody has to run against them. You have to wait until the next election which is not until November of 2014 to clean out some of these obstructionists, but the only real answer in the end is to defeat some of them. That means some good people need to challenge them. 

I also think because this problem is really on the Republican side of the house (in terms of the mechanics of the votes) that Speaker of the House John Boehner from Ohio has to develop more of a spine and take on some of the hostile forces in his own party.

I know he does not want to do that, because it may put his own job in jeopardy. You get these jobs in order to exercise responsibility, and if you fail do that, then you should not have the job anyway.

SEE ALSO: Government Shutdown: Tea Party Members Speak Out

NT: How do you feel President Obama is handling the whole situation?

Sen. Riegle: I think he is handling it the way any president would. I served with seven different presidents starting with Lyndon Johnson through Bill Clinton. I think when presidents are acting responsibly, and I think Obama is acting responsibly here, he has a right and a responsibility to stand his ground against an irresponsible Congress.

Now, Obama has never gone out of his way to charm members of the Congress - not that that is easy or that it should be a price of getting things done.

I think it is fair to say that he did not spend a long time in Congress and was never a member of the House of Representative, and he was only in the Senate for a single term before he ran and was elected president. So, he does not have deeper personal bonds with members of Congress and has not made a major effort to develop those bonds. I wish he had, because I think those could be helpful right now. Maybe they would not be helpful against the wing-nut people, but other Republicans that might be willing to stand up and confront some of these people in their own party.

NT: How do you feel about Ted Cruz and the rise of the Tea Party?

Sen Riegle: It is certainly a reality. Cruz, and people like Cruz who have a devoted following, even if it is a small one,   sometimes think that there are more people that support them than actually do, and they can overplay their hand.

I think Cruz is overplaying his hand. There are other Republicans, like Congressman Peter King from New York, who are starting to call Cruz out for going "too far" in terms of doing harm to the country to advance his point-of-view, and I do not think any member of Congress really has that right. 

He cannot do it single-handedly. Other people have to support him or cave-in to those types of pressure tactics. I would hope and pray that the Ted Cruz-types are not the face of the future of national American politics. I served as both a Republican and Democrat and believe the two parties can and should work together, but when I watch Cruz operate, it worries me.

NT: How do you feel about Congressmen like Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Min) and Rep. Steve King (R-IA) voting with House Democrats against passing the measure to delay Obamacare's individual mandate?

Sen. Riegle: I think people like that, who are known conservatives, have reached a point where they are willing to let a clean bill go through to let the government keep operating. I think that is a positive sign. It shows some sanity on their part, and maybe that means that the far-right is cracking a little. Some of the other conservatives are having second-thoughts and are peeling away. We need to peel away, because there are still not enough votes in the House to resolve this problem.

I think in the end what will have to happen is Boehner is going to have to take a deep-breath and permit a vote to happen which, on a clean continuing resolution, will pass. It will pass with mostly Democratic votes but enough Republican votes, but then he is at risk of being attacked and replaced by his own Republican caucus.

Sometimes you have to, as a leader, be willing to put your job on the line, because it is the right thing to do. That is why you get to be a leader - to lead when it is tough.

NT: Shifting gears, how do you think that this government shutdown compares to the one during the Clinton administration in 1995 and the beginning of 1996?

Sen. Riegle: There are some similarities. It certainly created some problems at the time. It backfired on the Republicans and Gingrich supporters who engineered that shutdown, and they lost control of the Congress thereafter. It is "playing with fire" to use this tactic.

I hope that the shutdown will not last as long as it did last time, but it could last that long. In fact, it could last longer.

NT: Do you think this situation will backfire on Boehner the same way that it backfired on Newt Gingrich?

Sen. Riegle: History may be a useful guide here. There is a high-risk of that, and I suspect he is mindful of that. This has the potential to create a serious political backlash, especially if it goes on for any length of time, but it is a great opportunity for him to take a stand, and I think a lot of people would admire him if he did. I know I would be one of them.

NT: From personal experience, what is it like when Congress is completely divided in a situation like this?

Sen. Riegle: I served in Congress from 1966 to 1994, and it was never this bad. It has changed a lot since then, because it has become more poisonous. That is largely due to special-interest money that has come pouring-in. This is not just true for candidates but also for third-party groups who have their own agendas. It is very hard today for Congress members to work together across party-lines. I think it is a great pity, because, having served in both parties, neither party has a monopoly on all the good ideas or good people.

People need to work together. Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill were two very different people, but they found a way to reconcile their differences and come to a common point-of-view time after time. We need that now, and people who cannot do that should not be there. People who want to set themselves on fire or set the government on fire to make a point should not be in Congress in my opinion.

NT: You already stated that Boehner should show more leadership to get us out of this mess, do you have any more advice for Congress or President Obama as to what they should do to get us out of this mess?

Sen. Riegle: If I got a call from President Obama asking me the question you just asked, I would say, "Once we get this settled, why don't you make a new effort to try to reach out to some of the reasonable Republicans in the House. Spend more time with them, listen to them…it doesn't mean you have to agree with them…but there needs to be more of a personal relationship in place to help in avoiding some of these situations in the future." 

I would say the same thing to the thoughtful Republicans. They need to build some of those bipartisan bridges, because the country needs that. It is not about how well a party does. It is about how well the country is doing, and, right now, the country is not doing that well.

NT: What would you do if you were still a member of the Senate in today's Congress?

Sen. Riegle: I would want to try and find cooperative initiatives.

One of the people who was always best at that, who has passed away now sadly, was Ted Kennedy. When Ted Kennedy was in the Senate years ago, he would inevitably always find a Republican co-sponsor. He did things with Sen. Orrin Hatch, Sen. Dan Quayle…he did things with other Republican senators, because he knew that if he could get a bonded, bipartisan effort going, he may not get everything that he had wanted, but it would be much more than nothing.

Kennedy was very masterful at that, and we need people [in the Congress] now who try to do that. I would be trying to do that if I was still there.

Reach Executive Producer Miguel Arreola here.